That Pennsylvania Witch
Join Katelyn Dawn for a conversational podcast exploring modern Paganism, life, the Universe, and everything.
That Pennsylvania Witch
S2 Ep 8: Urglaawe: A Living Heathen Tradition, Beliefs, Practices, and Pennsylvania Dutch Culture a conversation with Robert Schreiwer, Michelle A. Jones, and Stacey Lynne Stewart
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, we explore Urglaawe as a living Heathen tradition rooted in Pennsylvania Dutch culture. I’m joined by authors Robert Schreiwer, Michelle A. Jones, and Stacey Lynne Stewart to discuss their book and the work of documenting and revitalizing this unique spiritual path.
We dive into the core beliefs and practices of Urglaawe, from household and community traditions to folkways like Braucherei, and how these customs continue to evolve in the modern world. Along the way, we reflect on the deep cultural roots of Deitsch life, the relationship with land and spirit, and what it means to keep a tradition truly living
And, of course, it’s not all serious, there are birch beer references, and a potential cave exploration field trip plan unfolding.
Bios and Links:
Robert L. Schreiwer is a co-founder of the Urglaawe tradition within Heathenry. He is a trained Braucher within the Oley Freindschaft guild and the founder of the Blobarrick Freindschaft of Braucherei and Hexerei. He also founded In-Reach Heathen Prison Services and Philadelphia Pagan Pride Day. He served as the Steersman (President and CEO) of The Troth from 2016-2022 and continues to serve The Troth as clergy and in advisory roles. He was a member of the team that authored Declaration 127. He is a Senior Manager of Heathens Against Hate and as one of the managers of Philadelphia's Parade of Spirits. He is a Special Education teacher by day and an Instructor of the Pennsylvania Dutch language at night.
Michelle A. Jones is a Hex, an Urglaawe Ziewerin, and secretary of die Urglaawisch Sippschaft vum Distelfink. She is also a founding member of the Primitive Grove Circle eclectic coven based in South Jersey.
Stacey Lynn Stewart is a Ziewerin within Distelfink Sippschaft and a Braucherin. She is involved with her local Pagan Pride Day events and is a past member of the High Rede of The Troth.
Stacey's Art:
https://theaccidentalurglaawer.com/shop/
Links:
https://www.urglaawe.org/
Buy the book!
https://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738777337
https://bookshop.org/p/books/heathen-traditions-of-the-pennsylvania-dutch-an-urglaawe-primer-michelle-a-jones/c2702d3a495b9a83?ean=9780738777337&next=t
https://www.amazon.com/Heathen-Traditions-Pennsylvania-Dutch-Urglaawe-ebook/dp/B0DHPPTM8D/
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/heathen-traditions-of-the-pennsylvania-dutch-robert-l-schreiwer/1146321232
Thanks everybody for tuning into that Pennsylvania Witch podcast. Today we're exploring a spiritual tradition that blends cosmology, culture, folklore, and lived practice into something deeply personal and communal. Our guests today are the authors of a new birch. A new book.
SPEAKER_03That too, birch beer.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, well that too. Birch beer. It was a Cordian slip. I want birch beer. Um they're the authors of the book. What's that?
SPEAKER_05I got some.
SPEAKER_06Oh, okay. Well, that doesn't help me. I'm super far away from you right now. Unless you guys haven't been forthcoming about inventing some sort of travel.
SPEAKER_04No, we just need a set of those vacuum tubes between it among all of our houses. Like they have it banks, you know.
SPEAKER_06Gotta get to work on the tube technology. Oh my gosh, I love this. Okay. Our guests today are the authors of a new book that serves not just as an introduction to Ulava, but a year-long companion for anybody curious about building a meaningful spiritual path. I'd like to welcome Michelle, Stacy, and Robert today. Hi guys. Thank you so much for coming on. I I know we were chatting a little bit, and that's one of my favorite things about you, Rob, is that we can kind of run off on squirrel tangent and chipmunks.
SPEAKER_04Chipmunk tangent. It's chipmunk energy.
SPEAKER_06If I'm being honest, I don't think I have squirrels. I think I have weasels.
SPEAKER_04Weasels?
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I think I think Eli Beasel.
SPEAKER_04That's how people pronounce Alalasil.
SPEAKER_06How is that again?
SPEAKER_04Eli or Alalivatil uh observance. Some people call it Eli Beasel.
SPEAKER_06I think that might have been how I was pronouncing it, if I'm being honest. For listeners who haven't heard of Uglava before, how would you describe it in a sentence or two? And could you pronounce it properly? Because I'm butchering it.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Orglova. Orglova. Orglava or ova. I said some people say orglava. That's very American. Or or glowy. That's one that makes me cringe. Um my other personal favorite is org or glave, but uh orglova. The stress is usually on the depending on, you know, just like in English, sometimes you say adult, sometimes you say adult, depending on so there's the stress you is usually on the first syllable when you have UR words. So orglova is a modern iteration of the ancient Germanic religion as seen through the lens of the living Pennsylvania Arts culture. That's my elevator speech. Obviously, I'm getting off with the first floor.
SPEAKER_06It's a good elevator speech.
SPEAKER_00Does any does anybody have anything to add to that? It is a perfect wrap-up of exactly what the book is.
SPEAKER_06Okay, we're done. Okay, thanks, everybody. That's a wrap. I was really digesting that because I think the way that you described it is really beautiful.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. It's better. Wait, it's better than one of the Philadelphia newspapers once described it. It wasn't the city papers, one of the other ones. They described it or blah blah but not only as orblabbed but the sound that a peasant's throat makes when you stab it with a spear. Seriously? That's what's the rest? Um the rest of it was fine. It was also the name for uh a heathen religion through the Pennsylvania Dutch uh cultural lens or something like that. Dark. That was from like 2008 or something like that. I still love that.
SPEAKER_06It's pretty on brand for the old German fairy tra fairy tales, right? Like I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But we're nicer people. We're farmers, we only pick up weapons and hurt people when we have to.
SPEAKER_06What inspired you to write a book that lays out a year-long framework for this religion?
SPEAKER_01I mean, honestly, it was everybody asking. I mean, truthfully, it was Rob and I met in 2012, I think it was. And as the the religion grew and we, you know, people were coming out to the rituals more often. And it was we, you know, we had Facebook groups and whatnot. And it was sort of like people who were not local all wanted to know what this was about and how they could celebrate the observances and you know, what the deities were and who they were. It became sort of obvious that we needed to have something that put it all in one place rather than you know trying to link various articles across the interwebs to into the groups. And I started the outline in 2017 with the intention that it was only going to be a book on the observances. Um just sort of like a day in the year of an erglava. But as we started going through all this and realizing that you know there was so much more to cover, the book expanded and it took a life of its own.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, it took several lives in the process. The first draft I had first made up a little booklet in 2009, and it was a brief introduction to Orglova or something like that. That eventually stemmed into the dictionary of Oroglova terminology years later. But it was a very small that was a very small, thin publication that I had using one of those binding machines that you have at work where they have the plastic things. I'm like, ooh, but it did help. But and some of the stuff that's in there actually uh evolved into parts of this book too. But the but the dictionary was what got most of that. So Michelle was Michelle was a driving force behind us getting that book going. I was a hindering force, particularly when I got COVID. I mean, that that set us back years, quite literally, because you know, COVID I had very badly. I didn't come out of COVID vlog until sometime later in 2021. And I got in I got in the beginning of 2020. Then ultimately the one who dragged us across the finish line was ultimately Stacy.
SPEAKER_01Stacy who signed on to be an editor. We drove her into it much more deeply than that. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_06How bawdy are we allowed to be in this in this uh how body I'm not rated for children, so as bawdy as we're like.
SPEAKER_04Well, let's put it this way we were trying to make one of our deadlines, and and Stacy, her husband Mike, and I were at at Free Spirit Gathering, and we're working on this like these, where were we at? Under a we were under a canopy and we were under a Stacy's been there like typing, typing away, typing away, typing away. Meanwhile, that in the tent behind us, there's uh like a two couples that are obviously mixing things up there a little bit and becoming rather shriekish and uh quite shriekish to the point where Michael and I are looking at each other, like, how is Stacey not noticing this? She's just banging away on the computer while the other things are banging away nearby.
SPEAKER_00And like I said, there's a reason my nickname is oblivious girl.
SPEAKER_05But but eventually the best part is eventually she got she finishes the section she's in and she looks up from her computer, she's like looking at Michael and Michelle's like, what? What? Like, you're not noticing this? What? What noticing what?
SPEAKER_04Of course by that point it already sort of like you know drifted away, but but we digress anyway. Um so that's how involved Stacey was.
SPEAKER_00I actually have I had the pleasure of taking the different voices that had been originally not as much pleasure as the voices that were going on behind us and and kind of polishing them into one voice for the book rather than you know just the different people.
SPEAKER_06It really is a living tradition, you know, as someone who is lucky enough to learn from you guys in person and from my mentor. I was psyched to uh to get my hands on this copy of this book. But when I started delving into it, it was I know this sounds cheesy. I'm gonna be super cheesy and I don't care. But it's such a warm welcome to Pennsylvania Dutch folk magic. Oh my gosh, the recipes, by the way, I've already I've already tried two. Which one?
SPEAKER_02Which one?
SPEAKER_06The uh bacon dressing.
SPEAKER_02Oh well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06When we when I was hanging out with you guys, someone had made that. Oh Kathy.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, I've always anything Kathy makes is great.
SPEAKER_06Yes. I've tried to make my Kathy hears this interview. Yeah, kudos to Kathy because I think I was gonna I was gonna arm wrestle V for it at the at the at one point, but and then the other one was a spice cake.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_06So I don't know. It's just a lot of books have you know seasonal books about Sabbaths or the wheel of the year or other types of um, you know, modern neo-pagan traditions. They do have recipes and things like that. But this one is it's so nice how you tie them into your wheel of the year, into your cosmology. It's just really, really well done.
SPEAKER_00Who does it? And that's not to say there won't be similarities. Like we have raised dough, and other traditions have the hot cross buns instead of the fashionats. I mean, there's similarities, but I like that we have our own cultural identity with them. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Michelle even used the book to make her own recipes.
SPEAKER_01I did. It was easier than trying to read the like recipe that my aunt gave me because the actual recipe that I have from my aunt for the Fosnox, which is in the book, her recipe is like so tiny. I always now that I'm older, I need to get I always have to get out the magnifying glass or use my phone to try to read that recipe. So it was like, I have a proper book now that I can open this recipe. So yeah, I use the book for my own my own.
SPEAKER_00I've opened it up. I can't tell you how many times. Michael opened it up the other morning, right before Richard will be like, hey, what color should I wear? I mean, it it's already people, even us, we're picking it up and being like, hey, I need to find out this part.
SPEAKER_04It is funny what Stacey just said too, because like, you know, even though I know pretty much everything that's in that book, I still open it up and don't remember writing parts of it, or I don't remember it being edited, or I remember which one of us wrote some of the stuff, which in a way it's kind of cool because uh it makes me feel like a baby heathen again to a degree. I'm gonna wander into the weeds for the first time here, I think. Well, not not the first time.
SPEAKER_02Wander away.
SPEAKER_04You know, six, seven times. But the uh but the sorry, I'm still a teacher, you know. The mind shift that it takes to really kind of remove yourself from, especially if you grew up in a practicing Christian um household, take yourself away from everything that you've known and to put yourself in to see the whole world through the pagan or heathen eyes is a big process. I've some people I know who are going through the baby heathen growth actually don't like that time because it's very unsettling to them to have it question everything they know. But most baby heathens I know kind of enjoy those moments of eureko, the moments of discovery where you realize something that your grandparents have once said to you, and we hear in a whole different context. Even something as simple as it's raining, it's pouring, the old man is storing. Well, who's the old man? When you start putting those little pieces of culture into context, they start seeing that the paganism, the heathen backgrounds have been with us the whole time, just buried under these layers. Every time I come across one of those things, it's kind of exciting. When you're watching Disney movies and you're seeing the um the old Germanic undercurrent of like, you know, I don't remember which ones are which, but we see the beauty and the fairy godmothers. The fairy godmothers, which just came up here in the current observance of Enstauning. Um, that they're you know the fairy godmothers are the same as the Edie say in our in our religion. And that to me was one of the most exciting times of my life was going through that mind shift and getting all these little bits and pieces and things that I've grown up with. Yes, the Pennsylvania's culture is loaded with them. Um, just like American, uh American, yeah, it's mainstream American culture is loaded with them too, just from a slightly different perspective. You know, recognizing just how pagan and heathen the Easter bunny really, really, really is. Groundhog day, whole, you know, but uh that our culture was the vehicle for both the Easter bunny and the gr and the groundhog. All that stuff when you c start to realize it, it's kind of it's really makes it very exciting for me. And as I've gotten older now, and those little eureka moments are fewer and farther between because I've already experienced so much, but they still come up every now and again. There's gonna be like something but pops up, and it's to me that's like a moment of wonder that just kind of reinforces why we're doing all this. And it's those little wonders that make life really worth exciting, you know, worth living and very exciting. So okay, I'm ready to come in from the weeds now.
SPEAKER_06But oh, already. I think that's beautiful. I'll be back out because it's kind of hidden in plain sight. You know, we have a living tradition. You guys have been honing these practices based off of the resources that you have and the things that you have found out due to your diligent research. One of the most important things about your book and why it is set apart from so many of the others, because you can tell that this is a labor of love based off of your lived experiences, and all of you shine through in each of these chapters.
SPEAKER_04The recipes, Michelle and Spacey, shine through.
SPEAKER_01I'm just kind of along for the ride in those, but that's you've always been a taste tester, so oh yeah, there you go. You can add yourself that way.
SPEAKER_06So who did you imagine reading this book when you started writing it?
SPEAKER_04There were a couple demographics that I actually thought of initially when uh the when the book first first became an idea. The one was, of course, you know, people who are part of the Oracle Alva community are are interested. And also the people who are interested in studying Broccarai or Hexari, you know, from the Oracle Alva perspective, that was another one. And both those two are true. Um, the third one, which is probably less or so, but I think it's gonna make its way there eventually, are people who are trying to learn the Pennsylvania Arts language and its current uses, and like, you know, outside of just old hymns and biblical things or stuff like that, with modern terms that we are using for computers. I think we don't have that in the book per se, but we have a lot more vocabulary in our book that people aren't gonna come across in a lot of places because or lava is officially bilingual. And so there are many concepts that we utilize that aren't really written about in other contexts within the Pennsylvania language. So that is another demographic. Those are the ones that I imagined beforehand. In process here, I'll let Michelle speak to that.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna say, well, I think for me, going into it, I came from a pagan background rather than a heathen background. And, you know, those words are interchangeable for the most part. But when you think about the traditional pagan versus the traditional heathen, I would have identified myself as a pagan before coming to Urglova. My thought process was Urglova is such a special religion. I don't necessarily consider it either or. I sort of feel like Urglova is its own thing, and I feel like it can appeal to both subsets of the non-traditional religions. And I sort of saw this as a way to bring in folks from either side of, you know, that divide across Europe, so to speak. Heathens being northern traditions and pagans being southern traditions. And because I feel like there are a lot of things that we do in our tradition that people may look at and say, well, that's pagan. You know what I mean? That it's it has that more pagan feel to it rather than a strictly heathen feel. So in my mind, I sort of saw this as a book to bridge those mindsets and bring both of those groups together. And obviously, you know, we don't proselytize and we won't recruit people, but if we can bring people in and that are, you know, respectful seekers, that's ultimately the goal.
SPEAKER_06You guys are community builders. So we spoke about what uglava is. What is the difference between bravari and hexarai? I know the answer, so don't don't don't come out because I know I'm I'm learning this stuff.
SPEAKER_01No, wait, let me isn't that in the book? Let me, yes, it is in the book. Let me. So you wait, are you asking the difference between the those two words? Are you asking the difference between bracarine hexarai and orglava? Let's go for not all of them. Okay, so there we go. Let's start with the distinctions between orglava and broccoli and hexari. Orglava is the religion, it is the practice we have that has the deities and has the observances and all of those worldview type concepts. Broccari and hexeri are the folk magic traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch. Broccari and hexeri can be practiced within the context of most religions, but not the absence of one. So you find practitioners of broccoli and hexeri that are, and again, I'm using the terms interchangeably and I will touch on that in a minute, but broccarian hexeri can be practiced, you'll find Christian practitioners, you'll find Wiccan practitioners, you'll obviously find Uglava practitioners. We focus on it from the Urglava perspective, obviously, and how our worldview fits into that within the folk magic practice. Now, when you're trying to make a distinction between broccoli and hexarite, and sometimes you also hear the word powwow, that's where it gets a little more complicated because depending on where you are in Pennsylvania Dutch country or the dicheri, those terms can be used for different purposes. In Burks County, where Rob and I both grew up, broccoli was very much the good practice, and hexeri was very much the bad practice, being that hextorai definitely meant witchcraft. So when you were talking to people in the mainstream culture, we're a witch if you were practicing hexarai. As Urglova, we don't have that dualistic mentality, so we look at them as complementary traditions where broccoli.
SPEAKER_04Like a spectrum.
SPEAKER_01Spectrum, yeah. So broccoli ends up being sort of a more outward expression of the practice, being for the good of community. And it's more focused, I would say, on the healing. Whereas hexarai is a much more internal and immersive tradition where you're focused more on your inner practices and protective magic. Although both can have all of the things we call them modalities, uh, sympathetic magic, energetic healing, journey work, herbalism, all those different things can exist in both of them. But I think ultimately what we want people to try to remember is that the browcrai is the outward community expression and hexarai is the immersive internal focus.
SPEAKER_04So if we go by adverbs of motion or prepositions, upward and outward for broccoli, you know, downward and inward for hexarai, like like deep, deep dives. Stacey, have anything to add to that?
SPEAKER_01I mean, not at all. Yeah, and I also like to I also like to make sure too, when people come to Urglava, it's not an automatic that you're gonna be learning broccari, hexari. I think over the years, a lot of people have come to the religion thinking that they were going to learn broccoli and hexarite. And while a lot of the things that exist within broccoli and hexarai informed Urglava because that's where the stuff was like kind of kept, you know what I mean? All the things that got lost over the years, while the Broccari and Hexari practitioners maintained those, even though they were not necessarily like sharing them, that's where all of that content remains. So we took that to help us establish Urglava. But just because you come to Urglava does not mean that you're gonna become uh an apprentice in the Broccari and Hexari tradition.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, and uh everything Michelle said was like spot on. Actually, I think that's uh we're both relieved that we don't have to say all that, but but um the door, the floodgates really opened when we started in you know when I started interviewing people who identified as hexarai practitioners. Because, like I said, where Michelle and I grew up, there was they know they were looked at as the same coin with two distinct sides. But in other parts of the Daicharai, there are um people use one word to describe the entire thing. Now in central Pennsylvania, they'll call it hexarai all around. Up in the north northern, you know, far northern Pennsylvania they might call it bracharai to describe everything. But in Burks County and some of the other core areas in the heartland, they always had this distinction. So, you know, when I started interviewing the brow the hexarai practitioners, I began to see a lot of the things that were stereotypes of hexarite practitioners just crumbling. Like, I mean, because the satanic panic thing, oh well, that's a satanic practice. And all the people I had interviewed at one point when I first met, I can't remember how many identified hexarai practitioners there were at that point. I think there were 50 some. Not a single one of them had actually even believed in Satan. And the one who did didn't want anything to do with him because he was too Abrahamic. So yeah, so we started as hexarai practitioners ourselves, we began to work to define hexeri from its own perspective because prior to that it was always being described and defined by its enemies. It was always the people who were hardcore Christians who were defining what hexari was, or you know, quote, journalists, end quote, who were trying to undermine the culture by writing articles that were very heavily skewed against the cultural practices in general, are misinterpreting them, you know, targeting women, things like that, um, back in the 20s and the 30s. And a lot of times what they were describing were charlatans, not actual hexarai practitioners. So we've gone through a whole lot of evolution on that. And um, you know, I'm sure that's that there'll be people who see it differently from us, but you know, but this is the way Orgloba views it, and this is the way we view it, and it's it is what it is.
SPEAKER_06So you guys all grew up in some way, shape, or form, immersed in this. It's really unique that you guys are able to just tell these stories. It seems like you have a compulsion and a drive to make sure that the story doesn't die because that happens so often in pulling out these hidden elements in songs and poems and stories, bringing them to light. It's really fantastic that you guys are doing that. How many people did you interview? You said that you were interviewing people to get more perspective.
SPEAKER_04Well, the exact number see, my my Broucker grandfather interviewed 80. My mentor, my Broucker mother and her husband interviewed eight. I've interviewed 176. I have 176 interviews. Now, my 176 interviews, I have to I have to put a copy out of that by saying they're not all necessarily 176 distinct interviews because sometimes I've gone back to somebody I interviewed before for more information, or they had something else from me and have a count as a separate interview. A lot of those people were hex ri practitioners who were very much underground, didn't want their names known, didn't want neighbors to know that they did this stuff or whatever. And I've also had been at Broccari places where broccoli practitioners lived in the same retirement home and interviewed multiple people at the same time, including you know, people who would get in arguments over things as you know as ridiculous as what the difference was between a barn elf and a house elf and you know what clo what how you could tell by their clothing, you know, things like that. Some of these people were gonna go into fisticuffs over it. Privacy was always a very distinct thing because a lot of these people, most of these people were were above age 90. There were some in their 80s and some in their 70s. They really had seen a lot in their lives and they really just some of them were just trying to like get that what they knew off their plates because their kids weren't interested in it any at all, and or they thought their some of their kids thought they were you know silly old beliefs and things like that. And some of them may be silly old beliefs, but silly old beliefs still carry a lot of information about the cultures of the past. And I eagerly interviewed you know anybody and I was I would come across people in odd situations sometimes. It might just be something that somebody I heard. Somebody say while we're at a restaurant and ask them a question about it. That might that might constitute an interview. But others were more formal. And you know, the first hex ripe interviews that I did, I had to come with vouchers proving that I was uh that I was trustworthy. They had that had to be arranged by a common person I know, and I had to come with a piece of paper that had a certain sign on there from the person vouching who I was. And the primary reason that I got in that door was because I spoke Pennsylvania Dutch. So even if half of them continued the interview in English, that you know that that but that was what got me in the door.
SPEAKER_06Were there any stories that stood out in all of those interviews or that you would be able to share without no, I mean some of them are the myths, or like you know, or the various versions of the myths.
SPEAKER_04I mean, some including a few that I heard versions are partial versions of what I was growing up. Yeah, but also cryptid stories, things like that, you know, cryptozoological figures. There were a couple things that I kind of left out, like things about how uh people believe that John Wilkes Booth was acting upon there was one lady who b who was actually an interview in for Virginia back in like 2009. I didn't put this anywhere really, but she was convinced that John Wilkes Booth was a hex ride practitioner who who had got himself bound up by something he read and was possessed by demon by baneful spirits to go shoot Abraham Lincoln. Thing, you know, things like that. That was pretty that was kind of bizarre. That woman, if I remember correctly, also did provide some interesting information about other things related to cryptid in in uh in Maryland, which relates to the Schdala Geist. So the interviews were taking place uh all over the place. You know, I going to Ontario, I've gone to Wisconsin, I've gone to Ohio and West Virginia and Maryland and Virginia and North Carolina, gotten interviews from all those places, plus occasionally had run-ins with people like uh like the old bit the old man that who wanted me who called me on my home phone, which I don't still don't know how that guy got my number and wanted me to meet him down at Kelpie's cave at two o'clock in the morning. And idiot here went.
SPEAKER_01Yes. He he got a stern yes, he got a stern talking to by a bunch of us after we found out about didn't didn't let anybody know he was doing it, but told us after the fact.
SPEAKER_06And you told him you told him, you told Rob that we've all grown fond of him, yeah and that he's not not to but it how did it go?
SPEAKER_04It was the guy was really he he was like older than Methuselah, and um it was he was he was obviously somebody who had been trained in broccoli or hexari. I I don't I can't give this away here. He didn't know certain Broucarai things. I was able to get around all his defenses very easily because there were certain things he was not prepared for, and he was he was not harmful. He was literally trying to tell me that the Rosicrucians had no claim to Kelpius Cave and that Orglova would be better claimants too. And I was like, but you know, the the founders of Celpius Cave were a pietist sect of Christianity. He's like, you know, so he's like, yeah, but they were also mystics, and some of the things that you guys are pursuing are far more in line with you know what Kelpius' mission was. And people who don't know about Celpius Cave, that one right there, that's that's a that was at a interview of my own. I was long ago, I was asleep, and I kept having this dream about a dark room with a glint of light, of dim light in the background, and all these people, men discussing land boundaries and things like that. And they were turning around, they decided they would talk to the leader in the morning. So when they stepped, they were all it was all in Pennsylvania Dutch film. And when they stepped out, I I woke up with the phrase uh German town, uh Germantown caves on my head, except in Deutsch, uh Deicherstättel, Deicher, and and I was like, Well, that was awfully vivid. So I started looking up about Germantown Caves. That's when I first really came across Kelpius Caves, even though I've heard of it before. That was the first time I actually placed it in history as a Pennsylvania as a Pennsylvania Dutch first generation, actually Transylvania Dutch, he was from Transylvania place. But that was also when I learned about how early in the migration from the German lands to here, the earliest settlers were living in caves along the Delaware River. Those caves eventually got cemented up by the British, the people that were too bull, too rowdy. That from from those caves is where they were laying out the land, the property distributions in Germantown as they were getting ready to establish that. And I keep wondering if that's what my dream was about. Some of those caves, most of that whole area is Front and Green Streets in Philadelphia, and that area is pretty much all under an I-95 right now, except possibly for some of the root, some of the cellars in those 200 block of Hancock Street might actually connect to the root cellars by just like a near-level, but I haven't been able to get in anybody's house there. They haven't let me in. I haven't knocked on any doors. But it's possible that there might be some way to get into those caves now. Um, while I do enjoy going into underground Philly, I'm not 16 anymore, so I don't go raiding the uh streets of Philadelphia anymore. But it would be interesting to see it. But see, so like things come up out of nowhere. I really had no idea about that whole thing with the earlier settlers being in there, but I have been able to find, you know, more a few references to it, which are I believe I think they're cited in the book or they're cited somewhere.
SPEAKER_06But you know, if anybody's listening that lives in that area that wants to let Rob and hopefully me and uh Michelle, I'm gonna just join along, uh Stacey as well, explore the cave system in your basement. That sounds like a Nicolas Cage movie, and I'm here for it.
SPEAKER_04See, again, they the the the basements may be totally, you know, maybe totally isolated, but somewhere under there were the caves um and the 200 block of Hancock Streets, right by Penn Herb, but because Front and Green Street, that whole area where where the old riverfront used to be, because you know they've you know the river's been you know built upon and moved in, diverted over the you know the years, as as as is the case with most major cities. Oh my little my cat is conjuring. I don't know if you guys can see her trying to conjure thing. She's trying to conjure her way up on the couch. I love that.
SPEAKER_06But I love that. Do you live on the on Hancock in that area? Do you have a weird old mine shaft in your basement? Would you be willing to let random strangers explore your I mean I'm just saying it's really cool.
SPEAKER_04It wouldn't even be a mine shaft, it would be like a literal cave.
SPEAKER_01Like you know, it's like a bricked up opening somewhere, like yeah, somewhere in your basement. If you have a bricked up opening, I mean who knows?
SPEAKER_04Because again, that's a long time ago. And Hancock Street probably wasn't even Hancock Street then, because John Hancock wasn't around. Um, you know, John Hancock wasn't known in the time we're talking about. We're talking about like the early, probably the mid-1680s, like 1683, 1684. So John Hancock's name hadn't been established yet, but that cave system would have still been around there. Again, I don't know much about caving. I mean, over here in Bristol, Bristol Township, I've learned in the process of all this that Bath Road in Bristol was named because there literally was a geothermic bath over here that was also cemented in, except that was last century by the Americans who for some reason didn't want people to take advantage of the healing salts and everything there. I don't know, but but we digressed.
SPEAKER_06That's fascinating. And it's not surprising that that existed in this area. Very cool.
SPEAKER_04But the the weird thing was uh that that I don't think many of us knew about the people living in the caves when they first got here. I which I think is something that everybody tends to have a romantic notion of the arrival in Philadelphia. I mean, if you go to the uh Pastorious monument in Germantown, and it shows like the boat with the people walking off with their their arms full of food stuff and stuff, but bringing things in from Germany, that looks great, but it was more, I think, more like a matter of desperation getting off the boat with barely anything in your hands, especially that early on, and not even having a not even having a town laid out for you. So um, yeah, I I think that that we're well to do to remind ourselves of what people actually experienced back then and how much help it took for people to get here. We we arrived on these shores not as colonists, we arrived on these shores as refugees. They were the first large refugee population to get here. And we had help from the many of the people in the Netherlands who sheltered our our ancestors on their way out. Some lived in in English ports or near English English port cities for a while until they could get the clearance to come here. When they got here, there wasn't much here except for you know Philadelphia or Baltimore if they went there, or you know, New Orleans even if they went there, which was a little later, in New York, which was also a little bit later. Actually, New York was earlier, but um, all those were at the same uh different times. But um, when they got here and the Native Americans when they moved out into the frontier, which the frontier was like right here.
SPEAKER_06No, that's really cool. I I found out recently, um, there was like an an update for one of the companies I sent my DNA off to. It's probably being used for nefarious purposes somewhere, whatever, that I have Germanic Transylvanian ancestry, and I had no idea.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna tell the roundabout way of how I found Urguava and my Pennsylvania Dutch family. You know, you you want to touch base with your ancestors. I was I've been pagan all my life. I was not raised Christian at all. Uh my parents were like, you know, hey, learn about a bunch of things and choose yourself. And cool. I choose, I choose to be a pagan. Well, we don't want you to choose that. I mean, you know, typical. So I was pagan from what I'd say from 16 on. Became Wiccan early, early to mid-90s. I found a group in 2000 and I was then for with them for 20 years. Towards the end of that time, though, I I was leaning heathen because for some reason the Wicca I was practicing just wasn't aligning with some of what I was needing in my own my own spiritual life. So I was definitely leaning more heathen. Mutual friends had talked about or blah blah blah, and I was like, oh, okay, that's pretty cool. And I started poking around. Interestingly, I had gotten injured in 2019 and I I actually had to come off the ambulance. I wasn't able to work anymore. And I started doing like little art in the park things, and I think I did a pride event that first year. And then that first year, Rob put out like a call to uh action for saving the oak, well, oakdom or o' thalaroon from white supremacists. So I designed a bunch of pins with, you know, it was my first first design specifically for inclusivity, and it went through a change after that. We added the trans stuff, which wasn't in that first iteration. I came to them like really kind of I was guided unknowingly, but I ended up with them. It was the ancestors. When I was looking into trying to find healing that was in tune with my ancestors, I went to my father's side of the family. My mother's my mother is Czech and Irish, and my father is Mexican and Puerto Rican. Well, I as far as authentic healing with the Irish and Czech things, I I can't go over there for it, right? So I was like, okay, well, the Mexicans of Puerto Ricans are actually still here. What can I see about that? And it was the Mexican grandmother that had married the Pennsylvania Dutch gentleman who was a teacher out in Puerto Rico when they met and he brought her back and they had kids happily ever after. But it was interesting that when I reached for a healing modality that was connected to me ancestrally, that side of the family pointed me to another part of the family to get that healing education. I just found it really interesting that that things panned out that way, you know?
SPEAKER_06It is fascinating what we uncover. And sometimes, in fact, more often than not, I te I teach all over the place, just random things, whatever I'm in, whatever the weasel, my brain weasels guide me to. Almost everybody who tells their story or their origin story, like, so hey, how how come you got into this weird stuff like me? Well, a lot of times they're drawn to it, and then after that, they find out that they have ancestry that links them to this specific practice. And I think that's what's so beautiful about being a seeker and why we're compelled. You know, there's something that we're searching for. And I just think it's it's really powerful. Thank you. That was extremely relevant, Stacey.
SPEAKER_04I am finding so much more about these caves just in random, random Google searches now. It's just funny that I'm finding more and more about these sites now than I did back when I had that dream. When I had that dream, I c I'm sure that these articles were there, but like Google searches, I wasn't really finding much. But I'm noticing the dates on all the ones that I'm finding, and they're after I had that dream. So I don't know. It's that that that's something else that I think is kind of funny, um, is that it seems like many of us all pick up on signals or impulses from history at the same time. And it's not necessarily just limited to Orglova or heathenry or or pagan paganism, but it's like it's like many of us, regardless of our background, suddenly get a sense about something and they're start doing our own research, and a lot of it ties in together. It's kind of like how within Orglava, like all of a sudden everybody's hearing Ciza or everybody's hearing saga, or like connecting to one deity or another or something else. But that I think that seems it seems to transcend religion and go into the history, the history of the past. People are picking up on things. I just find that fascinating. I find it fascinating. I'm finding this many, there's many uh uh references to it already.
SPEAKER_06Well, I always say that anthropology and history is a gateway drug towards paganism or centered animistic anything, because all of those experiences tend to be so validating. You're sitting there just gobsmacked. You know, you have a feeling about something, you've always been curious about something, and then you find out, oh, lo and behold, you're the long-lost relative of so-and-so. You guys say that this book, so it's described as a foundational book. What does a functional understanding of this practice look like in daily life?
SPEAKER_03Um, who has to take it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I'm laughing because it depends who you ask, right? The whole point of the orthopraxy part of it. When we come together for our rituals as a group, we practice a very prescribed way, which is obviously what we lay out in the book. But I will tell you that what I do in my home practice is different from what Stacey does in her home practice, is different from what Rob does in his home practice. Our personal altars, you know, whether it's a singular one for us or multiple ones across our homes, are all gonna look different. I, for example, I don't do statuary, I tend to prefer representations of the deities. But I know Rob, if you're ever able to get to one of the rituals at his home, you will see he has a pamphlet of played out across his home.
SPEAKER_04And representations too.
SPEAKER_01And representations. Um, and I know Stacey is in the process of creating her own set that not only she uses personally, but that can eventually be purchased. And I'll give her her a little dig here because I know she won't do it herself at the accidental or glava. You're back on Etsy now, right? I'm on Etsy and I have the website.
SPEAKER_00I'll I'll put that in there.
SPEAKER_01You know, I also I'm dual trad. I have I belong to a coven and we do things from a more eclectic dictating perspective. So in my personal practice, that stuff gets incorporated. It's sort of hard to say what does that look like on a day-to-day basis. If you are looking to get started in this religion, I would say, and this is just me as an engineer being really pragmatic, I would say get started by using the book and follow what's in there. And then as you get more comfortable with the observances and you get more comfortable with the deities, then you can start mixing things up. You know, I I think the three of us and anybody else that is a core leadership member of Urglava will tell you that the only thing we ask is that if you're going to call it Urglava, please practice Urglava. I would never presume to say that what I practice in my home is strictly Urglava, but when I'm with the group, what I do, it's what's in the book. So I hope that made sense. I'm kind of babbling about it.
SPEAKER_04No, it makes sense. Um I'm just gonna add to it like same general perspective, because we are orthopraxic. When we're together, we all do ortho orthopractic. Uh when we're together, we all do the same things. Now, for as much as for as much as as I am identified with Origlava, I do have a couple, like I have only one major major thing that kind of is diverges from everybody else's, is that I think that that ala Libitsio is a 12-night event means that you can burn your Butzamot up until the 12th night of Al Libitsio, which is when Everger Yeager comes. But Origlava's canon quote, so to speak, is that we have him burned by October by by sunset on October 31st. So that's what I do when our rituals and everything like that. And that's also what I uh you know encourage other people to do. So, but there is a you know, otherwise, I mean, I would say I'm pretty much a strict Oracle practitioner. But I within that little bit of a discrepancy, it's it's also letting people it's also on purpose that I say this, so that people know that they can practice things. If somebody wants to put Jesus on their altar because they have to have a good connection with him, they may do that in their home, but that's not something that we would say is oraclava, and we would not if you're doing that, don't say that you're practicing orglava by having Jesus on your altar. You're gonna say you include Jesus as part of your personal practice, but it it it's like a distinction there. And the other thing I was gonna say, Michelle said something else that but it'll come back in a minute. Stacy, you want to add something, anything?
SPEAKER_00No, you know, I can't tell you how many people ask that in the group over the years. And it is again, you ask five different organisms, you're gonna get five different answers. Uh you got ten different answers. Well, one of the things though that um I like to say is that if if we're practicing it right, you won't see a practice, you'll just see us living our day in a an intentional way. And well, oh, did you remember it? Go. Oh, no, go ahead. Finish your because you're that that's the thought that I wanted to make.
SPEAKER_04I would say that if you want to really get started with Oracle, but start noticing things around you in nature, start noticing things, uh, take some of the time that you're stressing out about something to just even in the wintertime go outside and look around and find something that you haven't noticed about nature, like whether it's a particular bird chirping or whatever, like that, and trying to figure out why is that bird here at this time of year. You know, like what is it about that this now? Most of the birds have migrated. Why is this junko able to stay here and able to survive and begin to like pan out from from that and also just look for the spirituality in the moment, look for the beauty in the moment.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna say, and just to add on to that, I was joking around that I was thinking about writing a book, you know, Confessions of a Lazy or Glover, because let's keep in mind that you know, most of us have our daily lives. I I know Stacy is extremely busy with workshops and her art. Rob works a full-time job, I work a full-time job. So a lot of days, my daily practice is my meditations and conversations with deity in the shower at the end of the day. And I think that's important, whether you're practicing reglava or whatever, to recognize that in the simple things in life, in just the quiet moments, you can find deity and you can find practice. And we're no different. And I think maybe even we encourage that more so than what other traditions do, in that because we're so tied to the land and we're so tied to nature and the cycles, not only of nature, but of ourselves as well, that it's important to pick up on those little cues. And once you start opening yourself to that, you're gonna recognize that you hear deity all the time and you hear the the song of the earth, so to speak, all the time, and that there's nothing wrong with your daily practice being as simple as even sitting in your car at the end of your work day before you go in your house and taking a moment. I don't think that it has to be anything scripted. And you know, I'll be the first to admit I feel guilty sometimes for not going to my altar on a regular basis, but I feel like because I do have that conversation every night that I'm still checking in and I think that's that's important.
SPEAKER_06I think it's really important. I think in any practice, so many people ask, how do I start? I want to do this, I want to learn about it. And then when you start to talk to them, you find out that they are practicing it, they are connecting to nature and and finding out about things. They just didn't have the context, they didn't have the competence to say that they were practicing this. The path kind of appears once you step on it.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, I mean, the other thing is also people are used to dogmatic religions where you're saying you're practicing it, but you need an authority to tell you that it's okay that you're practicing it or that you're practicing it right. You know, you've been baptized, so now you can practice it or can confirm to hope whatever. You don't really need that. Quite honestly, but you shouldn't need that with any religion. But I mean, I get why why with Christianity, yeah, it's a requirement for some things. But but for us, the while we do have rights of passage and stuff like that, people you're you're here. This the world is your birthright, just like it is everybody else's. We all have a right to be here, we all have the right to pursue happiness. And rather than feeling awful about ourselves and how we're such terrible people by nature of this you know original sin that's attached to us. No, we're we're we're humans. This is how we are. We sometimes sting, we sometimes bite, we sometimes soothe, we sometimes heal. Striving to be more on the compassionate side within reason, because excessive compassion can also be dangerous. That's what what we're here for. We're here to try to make the world a better place for you know for those who come after us and for our our you know our next lies.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I definitely agree. So, in that same thread, how did you decide what to include when you're balancing cosmology, practice, and folklore?
SPEAKER_04When the editor started telling us what to throw out.
SPEAKER_01This book at one point I think was what 480 pages?
SPEAKER_04Something like that.
SPEAKER_00Then we still weren't done. Yeah, we were up to 90k, some odd words. And then we had to cut it back.
SPEAKER_01And for those readers who are enjoying the book, good news. There would probably be spin-offs.
SPEAKER_03In our copious spare time.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there are there are things that we wanted to include in this book that we were only able to include a cursory overview of. For example, one of them is I know Stacy and Rob right now are working on a green book.
SPEAKER_04And by working, by working, you know, our by our working that present progressive tense is being used rather, you know, aspiring to keep moving forward on is probably more accurate.
SPEAKER_01But and and I I would really like to see there be a a book on the moon rod or the the or blah blah uh psych zodiac um as a moon sign as opposed to the sun signs.
SPEAKER_00Um and we already have beautiful artwork with that that part of another is there that company already made all the artwork for that.
SPEAKER_01And then I I've been teetering around with the idea of a more in-depth holiday, almost like an altar book or a grimoire just for the uh the holidays. But again, as Rob said, you know, all great ideas, but finding the time to sit down and actually do it is so no promises, but there's definitely intention there. Yeah, so there's a lot of things that we wanted to include that it just the editors felt like just was gonna make the books too cumbersome, especially the runes, because they would have needed way too much space on their own.
SPEAKER_00And the Stephen Moonrod. But no, we have to rewrite it.
SPEAKER_04But fortunately for me and unfortunately for Stacy, she's able to walk in my mind and picture what I'm what I'm thinking and pull up my pull up. My image, the image is out of my mind. So that just means she's one step closer to the home.
SPEAKER_06But you've also brought up Athena. Can you pronounce Tina's last name?
SPEAKER_04Athena Dugan.
SPEAKER_06Um doing the artwork for your book because it's being beautiful. The inside artwork.
SPEAKER_00She did the inside artwork.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the art the outside artwork was actually originally drawn by Kate Cullifer Good, who uh she's it with she's within Origlova from Upper Vermont. Got it kind of reworked. The the basic image uh is in the hold on a second, let me just get the book out to describe it better. Kate designed the um the double distal think in the middle for uh the orglava logo, and the rest of it is kind of been extrapolated by a Llewellyn um Llewellyn artist and um came out pretty good. I like that book has texture too.
SPEAKER_06So it's yeah, it's beautiful. It is very beautiful. One of the things that people don't often realize, because everybody associates this with Pennsylvania only, but as you you all touched on briefly, this practice exists anywhere uh I get Germanic people settled. So, like Wisconsin, parts of Canada, I'm New York. I'm missing a bunch of sp of places, but what are the most common um locations for this?
SPEAKER_04This our second city is Chicago.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_04That's our second city. Um the ask for Patricia Needrick, who I credit with being the co-founder um where she she's where she lives. It act the torch had been passed to the next generation out there, and that is our second city, and that's actually where the president of the of the Orglovaor.org organization is Matt Williams, and um he's in suburban uh suburban Chicago. We we got people now in South Africa and Australia too. We also have you know presence in Seattle and you know, Washington and you know uh Arkansas, Missouri regions. Um we have people up in New England, up in New England, yeah, and Indiana and so in more and more places. Now the funny thing is that most of those people pretty much every state in the United States has some Pennsylvania Dutch settlement. How of like what of what significant size, I don't know. But like Missouri and Arkansas have what they call the Whitewater Dutch. And um, and so that region has you know some history to it. Certainly in Maryland, you know, Maryland and West Virginia are heavy Pennsylvania, and and Virginia, especially Shenandoah Valley, heavy, heavy region, and Ohio. Ohio has such a huge Amish population. Uh the Amish are not us. For as much as the Amish and you know, many Mennonite groups have tried to eliminate paganism completely from their lore, you know, so we got some stuff from them too.
SPEAKER_01So and I think it's also important though to note that you don't have to be Pennsylvania Dutch to practice this religion. It's it's all inclusive, and we're we're adamant about that part.
SPEAKER_04So we are adamant about that part. Yeah, because I mean, quite honestly, again, it it's who the gods call and for what reasons doesn't really matter. But so we don't do there's no litmus tests or anything like that. I know sometimes people who aren't of Pennsylvania Dutch extraction might feel a little bit left out, but their ancestors' contributions and everything need to be honored and hailed and recognized. Everybody's ancestors, but we wouldn't be here without them.
SPEAKER_06So in case you know anybody failed biology, but and you describe Urblava as a religion of orthopraxy. We've said that several times, but can you unpack what that means for the listeners?
SPEAKER_04Okay, well, orthodoxy would just like proper thought or proper belief. And that by itself has been, I don't know how many millions of people have died throughout the world based on that. You know, the religious conflicts among the Catholics, the Protestants, and all that stuff were based in heresies, uh, the concept of heresies straying from proper thought that kept the powers that be in you know in power. Orthopraxy just means proper practice. So when we're together, we have the orthopraxy. We all just do the same thing. But once we leave, again, people have the sovereignty of self over their own lives to worship the way they want to worship. I mean, uh, religion should not be a murder-suicide pact. You know, it just shouldn't be.
SPEAKER_00And it's almost we don't have that, we don't have that wall that you have to pay to get through to talk to deity. You can do that on your own. And we provide you a way, but you if you have another way, use your way. You know, it's it is absolutely non-dog dogmatic.
SPEAKER_04Request that we put out that people not identify things that are that stray from the oral of a general practice as being oral, you know, like putting, like I said, I said before, putting Jesus on the altar. But um, but you can still do it in your home. It was a request because of the cult, the fact that our culture is somewhat even it's still kind of threatened to a degree. But so I don't know if that gets the point across, but most heathen groups are identify as orthopraxy with or with orthopraxy.
SPEAKER_06It does. And I think a lot of there's this big misconception that a lot of practices, and I'll I'll throw Wicca under the bus, right? A lot of practices are supposedly, or people have a general understanding that they are ancient practices. It's okay to have a new practice, a new perspective based off of your study. It doesn't diminish the significance or or the power or or the relevance of a practice. And of course, this is extremely different than Wicca, but that's just a common misconception that people have about that particular brand of neopagan belief. I think it's really great what you guys are doing.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I was gonna say, I speak to that directly in the the room book about, you know, how many hundreds of years or thousands of years does it have to go on before it becomes a tradition? Who gets to say? Right.
SPEAKER_01And I think, you know, we joke too about the fact that like traditions great, but you know, I don't know about everybody else. I like my indoor plumbing. So the whole idea of reconstructionism is just uh I don't know. I I feel like it's almost like art for art's face art's sake, you know. Um, and we have to live in the 21st century. So why wouldn't you try to evolve your traditions to incorporate how we live day-to-day?
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, the way I always looked at or gloves is more we're more deconstructionist than or or revivalist than reconstructorists, where we took the Deutsch culture and pulled out the parts that actually still had pretty evident heathen core. And you know, even that was hard to separate sometimes, especially in Broccari, from the Gnostic influences that are there. But Gnostic Gnosticism and Heathenry actually have a a lot in common if you look at the orthopraxy version, you know, rendition of it. So we couldn't always necessarily identify whether something came into Broccari from heathenry or from from uh Gnosticism. But it at this point back in 2011, we decided, you know what, we got what we got from from that, and we're not gonna worry about that. It'll all all work itself out. It has. So we can't claim a hundred that we know a hundred percent for sure that everything we do is heathen. I mean, but we live in a modern world with we're a religion in a modern world with our modern conveniences. I mean, because you know, religion was not being conveyed by computer a thousand years ago either. So plus I also like running water and flushing toilets.
SPEAKER_06But um I also enjoy modern um amenities like running water. How do you hope that this evolves in the coming years?
SPEAKER_04I don't know if there's an answer to that for me anyway. I'm just so I'm just so almost like stupefied by how rapidly things have been growing just up to this point. What I do hope is that Orglaba can serve as a like a safe place, at least for you know, spiritually speaking, for people of all different backgrounds who, you know, people who are just trying to get through their lives and not harming other people. But because we are very inclusive, and so many people have been chased away from religions by religions trying to force uh their orientations and identities upon the adherents, and and thereby making the adherents not fit. You know, I don't want us to ever be like that.
SPEAKER_06Inclusivity is important, and that to me is what like a thriving Urglava community would look like. No limitations, welcome to all those who are respectful, who are seekers with good intentions and a loving heart.
SPEAKER_04As I said before, we even allow English speakers in our group.
SPEAKER_06Thank goodness for that, because I wouldn't be allowed otherwise. So thank you. There are so many holidays and and and the wheel of the year part of your book is so rich. Is there one in particular that stands out for you guys that you would like to tell our listeners about?
SPEAKER_01I think we're all gonna give you a different answer.
SPEAKER_04So we're all gonna give you multiple answers, probably.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I mean, for me personally, Bonasite is my favorite holiday, partially because I hate cold weather. And to me, like that is like the turning of the time when we get back to warmth and green and flowers and all of that good stuff, but also because I'm a Hollows woman, so it's also when she returns to this realm. Not that she's obviously not around. I talk to her all year round, but it's like she's just definitely much more present. I think it's also like to me, it's just a time of pure joy. The maple and being able to have everybody together for that that ritual and that celebration is just it's it just brings joy. And yeah, so for me, that holiday is really like that's my favorite. Followed very closely by Alalibitsu.
SPEAKER_00But which is probably my favorite. I um I love the harvest rituals. I always have. That one is what it was special because it was my first ritual with Urgova, and it's also the first one that I hosted at our home. I believe it was the first one. Yeah, we did Alalevitso, and then we did Ostra the second after that. So yeah, I love the harvest. I'm a harvest ritual girl. I I'm a I'm a horned god, you know, girl. So that time of year is right on for me.
SPEAKER_04And for me, I would have to say I'm kind of split among several of them, really, but I do love Evaker Jaeger, Sega, because I mean, it's first off, it's you know, we hold it at my at my graveyard, which is you know, the Orglova graveyard, and um where my family's buried. And plus Evaker Yeager is one of the earliest stories of that related to the to Orglova that I remember hearing. I, you know, my family's from that region. It's Appalachia there. It's it's in Carbon County. It's just remember hearing the stories of Ever Yeager, you know, when my grave aunt was telling us to go in the house when we heard that noise because he could run you over and not even know it, you know. She was Christian, but she was still telling the story, you know. Then second for that one would probably be Seag Dog of all of them. Seag Dog because it is a newer observance that spins off of old old Pennsylvania Dutch practice. Seag Dog literally means moving day, and it falls on our wheel of the year and like toddler hookover changes rapid and sudden and chaotic, and it traditionally fell on April 1st. I have a few people in my life who have been able to talk about having been part of this of that day where the tenant farmers picked up and moved and moved to a different farm, and all the roads would be full of all these carriages, you know, with all these traditions that went with them. That, you know, your your oven is supposed to be sorry, your you know, your uh furnace, your oven is supposed to be arriving at at the new property, just as your last things are leaving the old property, and sometimes the roads were clogged with these things. And this continues even to us to a very minor degree today because you know auto transport is so fast, but people still who are tenant farmers still do switch properties. And uh usually it was April 1st is roughly when it was, because if you think about it, April 1st is a good time to go because you're now in springtime officially, but it's still early enough for you to plant on your new property. But for us, that's also when we kind of recognize the shadier and shadowier and downright, you know, kind of dark figures within our within our pantheon. Everything is not always love and light. Third, we'll be split between Einstein, which is the busiest one we got right now, and then Four Yule. Fourul, which has taken on a life of its own. Let's face it. I mean, Four Yule, you know, the 12 nights before Yule, when we deal with our shadow side, is definitely our most hexic, our very, you know, uh hexariish observance because it deals so much with you know, inside the self, deep within the deep dive within the self and the shadow work. And Michelle's very well versed in explaining all that stuff to everybody.
SPEAKER_00I'm surprised you didn't say observance of the desecrated shrines.
SPEAKER_04Because I don't consider that to be orglava specific.
SPEAKER_00Um because it's not but it's very uglava unique, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Well, it is orglava unique in that we try to get people of all who of all different pagan backgrounds to together on June 5th to recognize the shrines that were desecrated by uh through acts of religious zealotry. Because let's face it, what Boniface did to the Thor's oak and to the other shrines was terrorism. You know, if that were happening today, and we had the media on our side, people would call it for what it is. It was terrorism. And as long as the church is is sanctifying that as a holy act, it I can't I cannot find peace with the saints who did that stuff. Um I can find saints with the the the average Christian who believes it, but who believes in Christianity or whatever. I can also, with the pacifist sex from which I come, I can recognize that. But I cannot, you know, I cannot stay quiet about the fact that religious terrorism has never ceased. And it began back then among our people in Europe and was never really defined as such. And the Catholic Church has never never really, you know, made up for that. I don't know how they could possibly could. I think they might have atoned for it somewhat, but it is also important for us to recognize that there are many deities that we don't will never have their names or anything like that because of those acts. For me, the most important part of that is for all the people who observe pagans paganism that is founded within some sort of cultural context to come together on that day and recognize the shared challenges that we all face. The shared challenges that we all face by being targets of religious bigotry and by being generally powerless to actually combat it. You know, especially here in the United States, we actually might be luckier than in many other parts of the world where you know religions have to register with the states or whatever. So we are the fortunate enough, but but it also helps to build a sense of community among the pagan religions that we all went through through this at some point, at least you know the the the ones that are based in some sort of old culture, and to try to find that the strength to unite to stand against things happening like this again.
SPEAKER_06Thank you for that answer. Thank you for this interview. I would like to is there anything else that you wanted to to chat about this evening or add to our conversation?
SPEAKER_04Careful what you wish for. You could uncork something, but okay, that's why I do this.
SPEAKER_06That's my only compulsion here is to nerd out with people and learn about your practices, our practices.
SPEAKER_04The Pennsylvania Dutch words are important because they are the culture from which this religion comes. You know, you don't have to pronounce it exactly right, but if you can at least get within, like, you know, like within the same zip code.
SPEAKER_01You know, like I mean, we we we had we have been talking about possibly, and again in our copious spare time, maybe doing like YouTube shorts on just like each chapter's by each words, you know, because I I I'm sure we can't read the chapter, but we could probably at least do like in this chapter you'll find, yeah, we'll you'll find these words and then I've done them already, like in the uh in Oracle and Facebook groups.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because people will be like, hey, can you pronounce it?
SPEAKER_04For holidays, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like I'll leave it sealed by itself. I mean, yes.
SPEAKER_00It took me a year to learn how to how to say that word.
SPEAKER_04Vasadorfagans gebrauch.
SPEAKER_00That one'll take another five years. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Hold on. Vasadonsk one more time.
SPEAKER_04Vasa Dorf Evagans Gebrauch. Vasadorf and that's a water rite of passage is like a heathen baptism. But bet but it's but baptisms are older than Christianity. But Vasadorf means water immers water water immersion or water sprinkling. Ivagong is go over gebrac ceremony. So it's the rite of passage from being welcomed into the community as a junior member or as a baby being claimed by the community.
SPEAKER_06Well, thank you all for sharing your work and your insights.
SPEAKER_04We're gonna end like that, and everybody, all your all your listeners will be like, huh?
SPEAKER_06What?
SPEAKER_04Where there's a Vasa Dolphivika, Vasa Daff.
SPEAKER_06Here I'll write that in the uh But I did want to thank you um for sharing your work and insight with us. And for listeners who want to explore more, the book absolutely offers a doorway into this practice that's practical, welcoming, deeply thoughtful. I just want to thank everybody for tuning in. And if this episode sparked your curiosity, share it with someone who might enjoy it. And we'll see you next time. Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Thank you.